Comments on: Installing a folded back

By: joel

joel — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:19:56 +0000

Bob,
I’m glad it worked for you!!

joel

By: Bob Sanford

Bob Sanford — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:16:41 +0000

I must admit that I used Mike’s method and it took more time to set up a vise and think about it that it did to install the back. The back pretty much slid right on and the only hard part was positioning the back on the blade. Now whether you can scratch the blade I can’t say anything about it other than I did not scratch mine and I used a real mickey mouse setup holding the blade (clamped between to pieces of 3/8″ plywood put into a vise).

By: joel

joel — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:17:51 +0000

mike,
We have tried both ways.
You can use lots more force with a bat ion the blade – with a plastic mallet we don’t have the ability to seat some of our backs – backs are just too tight, more leverage with a longer bat.
back fully supported – no chance of dinging the back with an uneven blow

You can see what you are doing with the slot up

No chance of scratching the blade if it slips in the vise

FAST!!!!! really really fast as there is no clamping time and you can use tons of force.

Mike, you should use whatever method you are comfortable with. The reason for my original comment was not to change you mind but simply to reassure Bob that our kit instructions, which have been successfully followed by hundreds of people, are correct and as counter intuitive as it seems there is no danger of hurting the blade, and many advantages of avoiding damage. And we know this from experience.

joel

By: Mike

Mike — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:21:50 +0000

Hello Joel,

Yes, but before the 1860s–and likely well before–cutting sheet stock and folding it was a laborius hand process. That was my point. Well, part of the point.

But I am curious as to the why you think using the bat is a better way.

Take care, Mike

By: joel

joel — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 00:17:31 +0000

Mike,
We do it with pretty thick brass also, we think the way we do it is a better way, you don’t let’s leave it at that.

in the 19th century the brass would have been cut out using big shears and folded after 1860 or so with big big presses. before that large screw presses would have been used although except for one engraving I don’t know of any specific documentation (humm – a trip to the archives might be in order). Overall after 1860 the equipment they would have would be the same as you have only larger and possibly less efficient.

By: Mike

Mike — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:19:02 +0000

Bob, you are most welcome.

I am glad Joel chimed in. We too have used the method Joel uses. But I wouldn’t try it on our 0.125″ thick brass we use on many of the saws we build.

The brass backs in the ShopNotes kits is made using 0.093″ thick brass. Even so, the bat method is a bit more difficult due to the amount we flatten the brass.

As to the bat method being the only method “all” British saw makers used? I doubt it but perhaps many/most/all did.

The sawmakers from yesteryear (many/most/all) didn’t use CNC machines to cut out or shape handles, either (we don’t either).

Back far enough in sawmaking history, and I suspect brass backs were cut out of sheet stock by hand. I am pretty glad to have shears for cutting brass into backs. I cannot fathom making as many saws a year as we do using vises to fold brass–but I suspect once upon a time they did. I am happy for the 120-ton press.

What’s the point of this ramble? Just because something may (or may not) have been done in times past, doesn’t make it a better way to do it now.

Take care, Mike

By: joel

joel — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:41:06 +0000

Bob,
With the traditional method we use the teeth bed down into the bat and are protected. It’s counter-intuitive but very safe. Batting the blade is the traditional method used by all the English and I assume American sawmakers of the last century and Flinn in England now. You can also exert a lot more force with a 2′ wooden bat than a plastic mallet without fear of damage to the hard brass.

BTW We install our backs both before and after setting and filing (depending on the saw) and there’s never an issue. just use a softwood bat.

Joel

By: Bob Sanford

Bob Sanford — Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:53:23 +0000

Hi Mike,
I want to thank you for the excellent job posting this tutorial. I was planning on using the method shown with the Gramercy saw line and now realize that their procedure can damage the teeth already filed in the plate. Maybe theirs would work on a blank blade but you set-up is so much nicer.

By: Mike

Mike — Sat, 30 Jan 2010 12:45:29 +0000

Hi Marv,

In a sense we do too. Because the steel is sheared off larger, wider rolls, the edge is dressed with a flat file. It just happens long before the pictures start.

I suppose one would say the top edge has a slight roundedness to it instead of a chamfer though.

Take care, Mike

By: Marv Werner

Marv Werner — Fri, 29 Jan 2010 00:03:01 +0000

Hi Mike,

That’s exactly how I do it but with one additional initial step…with a flat file I lightly champfer both sides of the top edge of the plate and lightly sand it so the back will slide on without scraping metal.

Thanks for the slideshow. It’s always good to see how the pro,s do it.

Marv