Aside from practical reasons for not going as thin as one can purchase good spring steel, there are issues that may or may not concern some folks. One such reason would be the increasing fragility of the saw plate the thinner it is. This is a true and valid concern for the end user of a thin plate saw.

Historically, different makers toyed with thin-plate saws. Groves made a short dovetail saw using a plate that measures on one example a nominal 0.016″ thick. I only know of a couple saws that were produced and still survive using this thin of plate. So is this thickness a “benchmark” of sorts? I personally do not think so, but my preference shouldn’t dissuade makers or users from going sub 0.016″ thick on saw plates.

There was a longish period makers used a nominal 0.018″ thick saw plate on smaller dovetail saws. I believe this is a good all-round thickness that balances longevity of the plate with the utility of daily sawing. However, it is still a fragile plate and a modicum of care must be exercised in storage and use.

There was a longer period of time (this and the above period overlap) where most makers seemed to settle on a nominal 0.020″ thick saw plate for the smaller saws. (As an aside, there is a least one commercial maker using this thickness on much larger saws than dovetail-scale saws. Like I wrote above, there is a current quest for thinness.)

After the mid-1800s while English makers seemed to carry on the tradition of thin-plate saws in general (up through their product lines), American makers got fat. By the time Disston was the main/only player in American saw making at the beginning of the 1900s, their line consisted of fairly thick back saw plates. The same company referenced above using 0.020″ thick plates on a large tenon saw still offers tenon saws using fat 0.032″ thick plate. I don’t understand this. However, I think the use of what I consider too thin of a saw plate on a large tenon will eventually encourage them to remake their traditional line-up of tenon saws using a thinner saw plate. That is a good thing.

Recently, a pair of makers of fine saws posted on a popular woodworking forum a little dovetail saw they made using 0.012″ thick saw plate. This saw, a prototype to explore the use of such thin saw plate, was questioned by a couple people about claims made and the issue of longevity bantered about. The thread on WoodNet is here.

Klaus and Pedder, the two makers of this saw, exclaimed it to be the fastest saw of its type (a saw for dovetailing). While I am quite certain it is a quick-sawing little saw, it is without a doubt a pretty saw. Here it is (with permission):

Klaus and Pedder take time to build their saws with not only attention to detail, but from all accounts, a prowess in sharpening. With no offense meant, claims to speed mean little. It is relatively easy to make a fast-cutting hand saw. I look at the statements in that forum thread as exuberant marketing, but still with a basis in fact. Thin plates with little set do cut more swiftly than thicker saw plates do.

One valid question for users of any maker’s saw: What will it cut like the first time it is resharpened? Oh, one can send their saw(s) back to the makers or send them elsewhere. That is true. But you shouldn’t. You, the owner, should resharpen your own saws. But even if you send a saw to another for sharpening I can guarantee you this: It will either saw slower or faster, smoother or coarser, with a narrower kerf or with a wider kerf than when it was delivered (or some combination of the preceding). Even if sharpened by the maker.

Another question I believe is valid is: Just how fast do I need to saw a single line? While this may sound like a stupid question, it isn’t. Why? Because sawing lines in a board bears little relationship to actually sawing joinery. One is more cautious and tentative near a baseline sawing joinery in a real project.

Speed of cut does have a direct relationship with width of kerf, PPI and rake and/or fleam. Width of kerf is the relationship between the thickness of the plate and amount of set. The rake angle affects how “aggressive” the saw cuts. One can use a thin plate with fairly even, thin amount set an have a recipe for swift speed of cut.

However, one can make a saw with too strong of rake for an ultra-thin saw plate. I have done this. One way to counteract having a strong rake when using a very thin saw plate is to increase the PPI of the toothing. While this works fine for many common woods in use when woodworking, not all woods respond favorably to a given PPI/rake/set regardless of the saw plate thickness.

I conclude that there is no real benefit to using such thin steel for general sawing applications. While the early saw makers could use such thin steel (and did in at least the case of one saw line made by Groves), it wasn’t popular, or didn’t hold up over a long term, as is evidenced by the few saws I have ever seen that used it (precisely two saws). The four saws we have made using 0.012″ thick steel have held up in near daily use, which may simply imply that the early makers chose not make their saws with “as thin as we can go” saw plates for other reasons.

Saws are fairly “crude” instruments in the chain of woodworking. More akin to a scrub plane than a fine infill smoother. Now, fine-toothed, thin-plated saws have always been used for delicate work so do not take what I just wrote as a judgement for not purposefully buying or making one. That is just how I view the use of hand saws historically.

Even in Japanese saw making they traditionally used thicker plate than Japanese saw makers of the last 20 or 30 years for a given saw size. Why? They could have used thinner plates on a given size of saw. I think it is because of the change we see in te west. That is, they once made the saws mostly for professional woodworkers and beginning in the 1970s or 1980s woodworking became more of a hobby market than a professional market.

Since then, I believe it is the marketing to hobby woodworkers that has driven changes to both hand and power tools. Some of those changes have been great changes for anyone working with wood. Some not so good for one or the other market–and some changes not good for either market. But the quest for “something new” in order to distinguish a product is a prime motivation for many of the changes we see. But this isn’t the only motivation for change.

For Klaus and Pedder, though, I think this latest saw is just a part in their quest for making the best saws they can. This is a good thing that can only benefit them personally and professionally and, ultimately, the recipients of their saws. Even if this thin of saw plate doesn’t become a “standard” offering, it is important to do one’s own investigation.

For more information on Klaus and Pedders work, you can read along on the Old Ladies blog:

(An English translation link follows the first one which is in German.)

http://pedder-altedamenauskiel.blogspot.com/
http://tinyurl.com/OldLadies-Blog

All our best to Klaus and Pedder!

Take care, Mike

What I never have taken the time to illustrate, though, is the shaping of a back saw. Because of the upcoming classes on building kits at the Port Townsend School of Woodworking, we have finally taken the time. The following link provides a 40 photo look at the shaping of a Black Walnut Harvey Peace open handle saw, with a couple photos of setting and filing the teeth.

http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/kits/backsaw/index.html

The only difference between a Full Kit and the slide show is that kits do not receive a medallion.

We hope you enjoy this peek into building a back saw.

Take care, Mike

Bob Rozaieski has added an episode to his podcast which addresses body mechanics and overcoming miscuts while using a hand saw.

I highly recommend watching this video. The video, episode #4, can be found here:

http://logancabinetshoppe.weebly.com/podcast.html

Way to go, Bob!

Take care, Mike

David Linnabary in one of the previous comments suggested we discuss breasting on saws.

Breasting, simply put, is a convex toothline. Breasting is used on more than just hand and panel saws, for instance, flooring, whip and pit saws. Here I am only concerned with hand and panel saws.

Breasting ranges from a fairly light to a heavy convexity depending on the saw’s length and PPI. It works in conjunction with the natural oval motion of one’s arm when sawing and has two main effects as concerns the tooth geometry.

Tooth geometry on a straight toothline remains fairly static along the entire length (excepting progressive raked saws). This means the first tooth and the last tooth will have the same rake. While a breasted saw has the same physical static tooth geometry, breasting alters the rake while sawing. Along the toothline, the toe will be a greater rake than at the heel–and saw makers on low PPI saws created a means to deal with this fact by increasing the number of teeth at the toe by usually 2-3 PPI. Why?

Because of the increased effective rake at the toe of a breasted saw, reentry into the cut using a coarsely-toothed hand saw could hasten kinking of the saw. In general, the higher PPI of a hand saw, the less this PPI change. This is because more teeth are engaged in the cut already. Often, saw makers also lessened the amount of breasting the higher the PPI and or the short length of a saw. For instance, on a 4 ppi rip the amount of breasting is more than on an 8 ppi cross cut and there is also a larger increase of the PPI on the former than the latter example.

Effects while sawing with a breasted saw include a more aggressive nature at the toe and a corresponding relaxed rake resulting in a less aggressive cut at the heel. Can you feel these effects? Yes, you can. However, this effect passes by generally unnoticed if one is sawing for all they are worth.

The natural motion while sawing is a slight oval shape. Embrace the oval. It is the most efficient means of sawing quickly with a hand saw. A purely straight motion is not only unobtainable, it is counter-productive to the geometry of breasting. The slight oval motion more or less equalizes the rake through the middle portion of the stroke making for a fairly consistent resistance. The lessened pressure of an oval motion at the beginning and ending of a stroke aids in not bending the toe and changes the effect of the handle hang. Huh?

Usually the longer the saw the lower the handle hang. Handle hang affects where the force of the sawing motion “over centers” during the forward stroke using a western-style saw. The relaxed rake at the heel of the saw and the breasting aid in allowing a full, forceful stroke using the full, or nearly full, length of the saw and lessens the “grab” at the end of the stroke where the power of the stroke is lessening.

Next up for the blog? More on fleam and rake for cross cut and rip filed Western saws…

Take care, Mike

So why are the texts in general silent about saws with brass or steel backs? Here’s where more of my guessing comes in. I believe that saws made for joiners and cabinet makers (a later designation) were simply made in a variety of lengths and a variety of teeth per inch in a rip-toothed pattern. I believe it was up to the individual to shape the teeth for its intended usage.

Why the difference between smaller saws and the larger ones? I do not know for certain, but from a saw maker’s perspective, I believe the difference lies in the effort to alter the teeth on a large saw versus the smaller joiner’s saws. The tooth styles on larger saws were, and still are, vastly different shapes. Not so on joiner’s saws. The basic shape of the teeth on joiner’s saws are identical, save for the amount of rake or the addition of fleam.

The era post-Civil War in America was a period of great expansion. The shear number of carpenters climbed as did furniture makers. By the last quarter of the 1800s, I believe saw makers enjoyed great prosperity, by and large, because of the increase in this activity driven mainly by the building trades. I think saw makers therefore sought a value-added approach: Now you can purchase saws with the teeth already shaped for the task at hand. I also believe this practice began prior to the advent of saw sharpening machinery.

I do not think Schwarz and I really differ much at all on this issue. I believe any apparent difference can be chalked up to the difference between manufacturing practice and shop filing practice in the centuries prior to the last quarter of the 19th century.

Take care, Mike