Aside from practical reasons for not going as thin as one can purchase good spring steel, there are issues that may or may not concern some folks. One such reason would be the increasing fragility of the saw plate the thinner it is. This is a true and valid concern for the end user of a thin plate saw.

Historically, different makers toyed with thin-plate saws. Groves made a short dovetail saw using a plate that measures on one example a nominal 0.016″ thick. I only know of a couple saws that were produced and still survive using this thin of plate. So is this thickness a “benchmark” of sorts? I personally do not think so, but my preference shouldn’t dissuade makers or users from going sub 0.016″ thick on saw plates.

There was a longish period makers used a nominal 0.018″ thick saw plate on smaller dovetail saws. I believe this is a good all-round thickness that balances longevity of the plate with the utility of daily sawing. However, it is still a fragile plate and a modicum of care must be exercised in storage and use.

There was a longer period of time (this and the above period overlap) where most makers seemed to settle on a nominal 0.020″ thick saw plate for the smaller saws. (As an aside, there is a least one commercial maker using this thickness on much larger saws than dovetail-scale saws. Like I wrote above, there is a current quest for thinness.)

After the mid-1800s while English makers seemed to carry on the tradition of thin-plate saws in general (up through their product lines), American makers got fat. By the time Disston was the main/only player in American saw making at the beginning of the 1900s, their line consisted of fairly thick back saw plates. The same company referenced above using 0.020″ thick plates on a large tenon saw still offers tenon saws using fat 0.032″ thick plate. I don’t understand this. However, I think the use of what I consider too thin of a saw plate on a large tenon will eventually encourage them to remake their traditional line-up of tenon saws using a thinner saw plate. That is a good thing.

Recently, a pair of makers of fine saws posted on a popular woodworking forum a little dovetail saw they made using 0.012″ thick saw plate. This saw, a prototype to explore the use of such thin saw plate, was questioned by a couple people about claims made and the issue of longevity bantered about. The thread on WoodNet is here.

Klaus and Pedder, the two makers of this saw, exclaimed it to be the fastest saw of its type (a saw for dovetailing). While I am quite certain it is a quick-sawing little saw, it is without a doubt a pretty saw. Here it is (with permission):

Klaus and Pedder take time to build their saws with not only attention to detail, but from all accounts, a prowess in sharpening. With no offense meant, claims to speed mean little. It is relatively easy to make a fast-cutting hand saw. I look at the statements in that forum thread as exuberant marketing, but still with a basis in fact. Thin plates with little set do cut more swiftly than thicker saw plates do.

One valid question for users of any maker’s saw: What will it cut like the first time it is resharpened? Oh, one can send their saw(s) back to the makers or send them elsewhere. That is true. But you shouldn’t. You, the owner, should resharpen your own saws. But even if you send a saw to another for sharpening I can guarantee you this: It will either saw slower or faster, smoother or coarser, with a narrower kerf or with a wider kerf than when it was delivered (or some combination of the preceding). Even if sharpened by the maker.

Another question I believe is valid is: Just how fast do I need to saw a single line? While this may sound like a stupid question, it isn’t. Why? Because sawing lines in a board bears little relationship to actually sawing joinery. One is more cautious and tentative near a baseline sawing joinery in a real project.

Speed of cut does have a direct relationship with width of kerf, PPI and rake and/or fleam. Width of kerf is the relationship between the thickness of the plate and amount of set. The rake angle affects how “aggressive” the saw cuts. One can use a thin plate with fairly even, thin amount set an have a recipe for swift speed of cut.

However, one can make a saw with too strong of rake for an ultra-thin saw plate. I have done this. One way to counteract having a strong rake when using a very thin saw plate is to increase the PPI of the toothing. While this works fine for many common woods in use when woodworking, not all woods respond favorably to a given PPI/rake/set regardless of the saw plate thickness.

I conclude that there is no real benefit to using such thin steel for general sawing applications. While the early saw makers could use such thin steel (and did in at least the case of one saw line made by Groves), it wasn’t popular, or didn’t hold up over a long term, as is evidenced by the few saws I have ever seen that used it (precisely two saws). The four saws we have made using 0.012″ thick steel have held up in near daily use, which may simply imply that the early makers chose not make their saws with “as thin as we can go” saw plates for other reasons.

Saws are fairly “crude” instruments in the chain of woodworking. More akin to a scrub plane than a fine infill smoother. Now, fine-toothed, thin-plated saws have always been used for delicate work so do not take what I just wrote as a judgement for not purposefully buying or making one. That is just how I view the use of hand saws historically.

Even in Japanese saw making they traditionally used thicker plate than Japanese saw makers of the last 20 or 30 years for a given saw size. Why? They could have used thinner plates on a given size of saw. I think it is because of the change we see in te west. That is, they once made the saws mostly for professional woodworkers and beginning in the 1970s or 1980s woodworking became more of a hobby market than a professional market.

Since then, I believe it is the marketing to hobby woodworkers that has driven changes to both hand and power tools. Some of those changes have been great changes for anyone working with wood. Some not so good for one or the other market–and some changes not good for either market. But the quest for “something new” in order to distinguish a product is a prime motivation for many of the changes we see. But this isn’t the only motivation for change.

For Klaus and Pedder, though, I think this latest saw is just a part in their quest for making the best saws they can. This is a good thing that can only benefit them personally and professionally and, ultimately, the recipients of their saws. Even if this thin of saw plate doesn’t become a “standard” offering, it is important to do one’s own investigation.

For more information on Klaus and Pedders work, you can read along on the Old Ladies blog:

(An English translation link follows the first one which is in German.)

http://pedder-altedamenauskiel.blogspot.com/
http://tinyurl.com/OldLadies-Blog

All our best to Klaus and Pedder!

Take care, Mike

More to follow…Mike
*******************

I was pretty tried last night when I began this post. Being one’s own rigger moving heavy stuff—and just a lot of stuff—does that. Not being smart enough to hire it done we did it ourselves.

We shut down parts of the shop last Wednesday and began packing up while a couple of us continued building and shipping orders through Friday morning. About noon on Friday we all began the move in earnest. Everything was palletized for shoving the 6′ long pallets off the loading dock into the 26′ truck.

Yesterday morning we unloaded the last load. Phew! we were so wore out that about 2 pm I sent everyone home to rest. We more or less know how the new space will be laid out and so today begins shoving things around. Friday the electrician arrives to wire up for the two 3-phase machines, adding some 220 single-phase drops and the machinery will begin whiz-banging again.

What’s all this mean for contacting us? The new phone lines and Internet connection will be added this Friday as well–so if you call before next Monday you will likely only hear ringing. Email will be the best means to contact me until Monday June 7. However, do note that without the Internet connection at the shop, I am using the home DSL line to receive emails and at that I am only able to check it in the mornings and evenings.

The servers are being set up temporarily at the house Thursday. Until then I cannot look up orders to check their status. So if you write us, please let us know as much as possible about your order (order number, pertinent details about it) and I’ll locate it to update you.

I apologize for any inconvenience the move may cause you. We are trying to make it as swift as possible.

Take care, Mike

There will be the ubiquitous shopping cart and even stock to put into it…We are starting out with the Harvey Peace, Henry Disston and early Kenyon saws. As well there are the files and other tools to maintain your hand saws.

We also have some in-stock kits ready to go. There will be a limited offering as goes options at first and we will work on fleshing out the kit saws. nd we will have the parts-ala-carte section.

Here’s a first peek at a screen shot:

I am in the process of adding to the product database and tweaking the design and some of the features. If I can squeeze in the time, I believe the site will be up by the end of April—the week after my kit building class.

Please note: I have never done a web site of this complexity before. I am pretty certain the web site as a whole will be off-line for at least a day. There should be a readable page informing visitors to www.wenzloffandsons.com that we will be down for maintenance.

Thank you all for your continued support.

Mike

All lovers of quality hand tools–Listen up.

At least if you are within driving distance of Portland, Ore.

Gary Rogowski’s Northwest Woodworking Studio, in Portland Ore. will be the place to be on February 19^th and 20^th for the Lie-Nielsen Hand Tool Event. This event will have notaries such as Ron Hock (need Ron’s latest book or have it signed?), Kevin Drake and Dave Jeske will be there set up to demonstrate.

These events that Thomas Lie-Nielsen began a few years ago have grown to be a very popular event. In fact, I believe they are the only place for a free, interactive chance to use hand tools. Need questions answered about the use or the care and feeding of hand tools? Go.

These LN Hand Tool Events are so much more than simply a place to purchase a tool. They are the opportunity to enhance your ability to sharpen any tool woodworking related, to learn to quickly and easily flatten a board (check out the use of a toothed blade in this regard), to mark out your work, to saw better–in short, to do any hand tool woodworking task.

While you are at it, check out Gary’s school. Top-rate instruction in the fine art of woodworking goes on there, taught by dedicated instructors. The address to the school is on the LN site and can be gotten to by clicking on the Lie-Nielsen link in the first paragraph.

I hope to see you there. I’ll might pop on down to Gary’s school on Friday afternoon, but probably will have to await Saturday instead depending on how Friday is shaping up at work.

And for y’all in northern Washington State, Lie-Nielsen will be at Seattle Central Community College on February 26^th and 27^th. For the address, see the announcement page on the Lie-Nielsen web site.

 Take care, Mike
(P.S., did I mention these events are free…?)

I had intended to post this a few weeks ago. That was when we arrived to find a 1″ high-pressure overhead water line had burst in the shop sometime in the night. It’s been fun & games ever since.

I will be at the WIA in Valley Forge that starts this Friday–where does the time go? We made the decision to forego a booth this time around. I will have three talks about saw sharpening and be spending time at the hands-on area for anyone wanting to practice saw sharpening.

But I will be at a booth. Lee Richmond from The Best Things is going to have a booth. I will be demonstrating tools there when I am not speaking or in the hands-on area (well, I will also be slipping out for some other talks a couple times). So whether you would like to try out the W&S Kenyon saws TBT carries, or chisels, marking gauges, the recently added French rasps we have begun using, Japanese saws–whatever Lee is bringing–drop on by and give ‘em a whirl.

There might even be a new model of the Kenyon saws or two there.

Hope to meet you there.

Take care, Mike

A necessary change in web site hosts has afforded us the opportunity to begin a long overdue project–adding a blog.

From time to time, we will examine hand tool use, history and, well, simply update the world at large as to the doings around here.

We will be adding articles of interest, in particular sawing and sawing exercises that we think will be of interest.

Take care, Mike